Do you really believe your Koran? It is a bunch of DOGMA! It is 
what keeps your people POOR, IGNORANT and SUBSERVANT. You sick 
ass holes are stuck in the same crap you were in 2000 years ago. 
DONT YOU THINK IT'S A CLUE???? You spout off about satin. You 
sick fucker YOU ARE SATIN!!!!!!!!!!!! Any ass hole who thinks 
war is holy is a sick misguided idiot! Wake up you stupid towel 
head! Why the fuck do you run around with a stinking dirty towel 
on your head any way? You look like a baby with the diaper on 
the head! You are an arrogant sick imbecile! Your stupid rock is 
no better than anyone else s! Wake up! You have your head stuck 
in a book written by a religious FREAK!!! The whole world is 
sacred. Not just your stupid rock you call home!! Fuck off you 
stupid ass hole. Get a grip! You idiots have been pissing at 
each other since the beginning of time. Nothing has changed! I 
am sick of the Holier than thou Muslims and Jews!!! Fuck you and 
your fucking religions!!!! Do you really think you will have 
virgins and plentiful fruit in paradise?? What a fucking 
IDIOT!!! You really believe that fairy tale??!! You are OUT OF 
YOUR FUCKING MIND. Get off the damn drugs!! you bunch of poppy 
headed idiots!!!!!!! YOU ARE GOING TO YOUR OWN LITTLE HELL!! you 
sick fucker

One Word:Paxil

kklkl

Another word:Straightjacket

ROFL@Paxil.  Good one, Walter.

To the person posting under the name God's son.  Your ignorance 
is just as profound as you claim theirs to be.  2000 years ago 
was the time of Christ...not Mohammed, he came later.

Both the Jewish people and the Muslim people worship the SAME 
God that you profess to be son of.  God's REAL son would never 
have spoken to God's followers the way you just did.  And, the 
Bible cautions us against judging others...that job is assigned 
to Jesus.  Only he can determine who will burn in hell.  I 
believe that he is a forgiving Lord, I hope that you will 
someday grow up and see that everything in the world is not 
black and white.

1.In a free society such as the United,  
States,U.K.,Europe,etc.;why is there freedom of choice in 
religion,or even choice of not to believe,without repercussions 
from said goverments or society in general?(by  "repercussions", 
we are refering to imprisonment,beatings,public scorn,or even 
death.)

I don't know about any other country but I do know that it is a 
historical fact the the United States was founded, in a big part, 
on the premise of Freedom of Religion (NOT freedom FROM religion 
as many have been brainwashed to believe today.)  Nowhere in the 
constitution is the phrase or even the idea of separation of 
church and state indicated.  What is mandated is that the 
government will not interfere with the people's free excercise to 
worship God (or not, if they so choose.)  If they choose to 
worship other gods, this, too, is there constitional right.  The 
government is also prohibited from setting up a government run 
religion.

2.In societies that control freedom of said choices;what is the 
purpose of that control over society?

Societies that restrict or control the practice of religion do so 
to divert the people's desire to answer to a higher authority 
than themselves.  There is a deep seated desire in the human 
psyche to answer to a power higher than themselves.  God designed 
us that way and, like it or not, it is the search for this power 
that drives most human pursuits.  The leaders of these 
restrictive societies understand that if you eliminate all the 
competition they have much better control.   Hitler knew, 
acknowledged and played on this during his rise to power.  The 
document portion below can be found using the following 
link...see for yourselves.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca-01/nca-01-07-means-30.html

6. SUPPRESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES 

A. The Nazi conspirators sought to subvert the influence of the 
churches over the people of Germany. 

(1) They sought to eliminate the Christian Churches in Germany. 

(a) Statements of this aim. Martin Bormann stated in a secret 
decree of the Party Chancellery signed by him and distributed to 
all Gauleiters 7 June 1941: 

     "Our National Socialist ideology is far loftier than the 
con- 

                                                                                                         
[Page 264] 

     cepts of Christianity, which in their essential points have 
been taken over from Jewry ***. A differentiation between the 
various Christian confessions is not to be made here *** the 
Evangelical Church is just as inimical to us as the Catholic 
Church. *** All influences which might impair or damage the 
leadership of the people exercised by the Fuehrer with the help 
of the NSDAP must be eliminated. More and more the people must be 
separated from the churches and their organs the pastors. *** 
Just as the deleterious influences of astrologers, seers and 
other fakers are eliminated and suppressed by the State, so must 
the possibility of church influence also be totally removed. *** 
Not until this has happened, does the state leadership have 
influence on the individual citizens. Not until then are the 
people and Reich secure in their existence for all time." (D-75)


3.Regarding the war on terror;how do you feel about the relation 
between current affairs of now,and Isaac and Ishmael of old.Or 
does it relate?

There is definitely a relationship here.  These conflict in the 
middle east come from origins of thousands of years.  Not only 
between Isaac and Ishmael but also between Isaac's son's Esau and 
Jacob.

***
The following quote comes from a commentary to be found using the 
following link:

http://gospelcom.net/shofar/pp/until/until.php

Though the Palestinians want Jerusalem for the capital of their 
own Palestinian state, Palestine, God's word teaches that the 
Jewish people will end up in Jerusalem with this city as their 
eternal political and religious capital, forever (Psalms 
132:13-14; Ezekiel 37:24-28; and Zechariah 1:14-17).

Ezekiel 35 and Obadiah are both prophecies of a people in the 
last days that come to power with the purpose of eliminating the 
Jewish state and its people. The people described in these 
passages are the Palestinian people of today, descendants of the 
Edomites, Esau.

What we are witnessing today in Israel, the struggle between the 
Israelis and the Palestinians, is the precursor to these 
scriptures being completely fulfilled. Since it has never been 
just like it is today, seemingly in lock-step with the word of 
God, Arafat's every action and word move us closer to the time of 
fulfilled prophecy.
***

I have included the portion of scripture that describes the birth 
of the fore fathers of both Israel and Palestine.  You may look 
up the preceding scriptures in any Bible and read for yourselves 
the prophecies stated therein.

Genesis 25:19-23  And these [are] the generations of Isaac, 
Abraham's son: Abraham begat Isaac:  And Isaac was forty years 
old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the 
Syrian of Padan-aram, the sister to Laban the Syrian.  And Isaac 
entreated the LORD for his wife, because she [was] barren: and 
the LORD was entreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.  
And the children struggled together within her; and she
said, If [it be] so, why [am] I thus? And she went to inquire of 
the LORD.  And the LORD said unto her, Two nations [are] in thy 
womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy 
bowels; and [the one] people shall be stronger than [the other] 
people; and the
elder shall serve the younger.  And when her days to be delivered 
were fulfilled, behold, [there were] twins in her womb.  And the 
first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they 
called his name Esau.  And after that came his brother out, and 
his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: 
and Isaac [was] threescore years old when she bare them.  And the 
boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and 
Jacob [was] a plain man, dwelling in tents.  And Isaac loved 
Esau, because he did eat of [his] venison: but Rebekah loved 
Jacob.  And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and 
he [was] faint:  And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, 
with that same red [pottage]; for I [am] faint: therefore was his 
name called Edom.  And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy 
birthright.  And Esau said, Behold, I [am] at the point to die: 
and what profit shall this birthright do to me?  And Jacob said, 
Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his 
birthright unto Jacob.

Esau  = Edom = Palestine
Jacob = Isreal


As a final note to add to yet another posting I read this morning 
by Missin'.  Christ did die for us, for all of us, not just 
a fractional few.  He died the death he did so that the 
prophecies of old would be fulfilled and that those who chose to 
search, see and believe might be saved from their own sin.

Thanks for the firm stand Missin' .

Smiley,
Thanks so much for upping that post.  I'm finding the biblical 
references very helpful in broadening my understanding of why 
there is such continual unrest between the Palestinians and 
Israel...much more so than just the history of the Zionists and 
the creation of the state.

It does sadden me though, that God would have set brother 
against brother so many times in eternal unrest.  Again, I have 
to accept that his ways are not my ways.  And, trust that 
everything will work out in the end to his Glory.  But, it's 
heartbreaking all the same.

And, you are very welcome.  I only wish that there didn't have 
to be so much hatred in the world.

it will probably take us a few more days to respond ourselfs.
we are happy for those of you who are responding to our 
questions.it is interesting.
again,we thank you.

In answer to your query, I've heard nothing reported myself 
regarding any suspected British fatalities on either the B.B.C 
or British Sky Broadcasting News (an official sister station 
affiliated to the Fox News Network in the U.S.) since the date 
you mentioned. IF...it has been reported, it hasn't been made 
into a conspicuous news item to my knowledge. The passing of a 
former Beatle member had grabbed all the headlines over the week-
end.

In the act of scanning through the papers however I found 3 
items, one an alarming report, and 2 opinions one pro-War 
(former MP Robert Kilroy-Silk) and anti-War (freed British 
reporter Yvonne Ridley) , which I'll relay verbatim. These 
latter two iems, Om/cf, I'll have to leave until my next posting.


News Report: Dated Dec 1 2001 (Daily Express, Tabloid U.K.)

"I trained to bomb British Parliament"

A man held by police in India has claimed to be part of a plot 
to crash a passanger jet into the Houses of Parliament (London).

Mohammed Afroz said he took flying lessons in Britian, the 
United States and Australia to prepare for the attack, spending 
more than 150,000 in British Sterling. Police arrested Afroz in 
Bombay more than a month ago as part of the worldwide round-up 
of suspected worldwide terrorists.

The Asian Age newspaper reports that local investigators are not 
sure when the attack was intended to take place and are unsure 
how much credibility to give to the claim. Afroz was also found 
with documents using the last name "Afridi". He confessed to 
taking lessons at the same Florida flight school that trained 
the hijackers who crashed four U.S. airliners on Sept 11, 
including 2 into the World Trade Centre and 1 into the Pentagon.

But police in India said they had not yet found evidence of a 
link to terror leader Osama Bin Laden and the Al-Qeada network 
held responsible for the U.S. attacks. Bombay police recovered 
an "American Crdit Card" from Afroz and a passport with visas 
from Australia, Britain, Thailand and the United States, 
according to the newspaper. Afroz arrived in New Delhi on 
September 12 - the day after the suicide hijacks - and then 
moved to Bombay.

Above, is the report in its entirety. The newspaper editorial 
voiced its own opinion on 3 of its stories, 1, was the Asylum 
Issue, 2, the death of George Harrison and the above. The paper 
comments as follows;

Titled: Why we are still in peril.

The arrest of a terrorist suspect in India appears to confirm 
our worst fears. Mohammed Afroz claims he learned to fly at the 
same Florida avaition school as September 11 hijacker Mohammed 
Atta so that he could crash an aircraft into the Houses of 
Parliament.

If we thought that Britian was not a target of terrorists in the 
same way that the U.S has been we were wrong. This underlines 
once more the need to maintain extra vigilance and tighten 
security measures at home. Even with all eyes on Afghanistan and 
with the events of September 11 begining to sink into the memory 
we must never forget that the threat here remains ever present.

The speed with which the Taliban are crumbling in Afghanistan 
must not fool us into believing that those scheming further 
attacks on Western capitals have stopped doing so. Even if Osama 
Bin Laden is killed or captured the Al-Qaeda network of 11,000 
recruits and it's cells in more than 50 countries will be 
operating.

As Mr Afroz in India reminds us, it takes only one fanatic to 
wreak horrific destruction. That is why security at home must 
never take second place to the war abroad. 

Unfortunately this type of strife goes all the way back to the 
garden.  The first murder was comitted by the 2nd generation; and 
why? Because of jealousy, selfishness and pride.  

It was not God, really, that set them against each other, it was 
sin.  God, however, did know, through his omnipotence, that these 
two brothers (and their descendents) would struggle right up 
until the last trumpet sounds.  It is all in the Book and 
undeniable.  I was a marginal believer most of my life but as 
these last years have unfolded and fallen step for step with 
prophecies made hundreds, and even thousands of years ago, I 
cannot deny the signs of the times.  

I agree with you that it is painful to see so much strife in the 
world today.  It is not how God intended it to be.  Again, most 
of it comes from...jealousy, selfishness and pride.

I can't wait to see the replies given.

Dear Smiley,

I'm not sure how much I agree with you.  I'd like to, believe 
me.  But, if you've read the Left Behind series of books, you'll 
see some of the prophecies of the end times promise terrible 
things to those who were not raptured.  Ordinary people 
tortured, massacred, the world torn apart.  The reason given in 
the books for these things are that they serve as a last wake-up 
call for people to come to God in their hearts.

The secular world...and sin...are compelling and beautiful in 
appearance.  How else can God compete when we can't see, hear or 
touch him in our everyday lives?  I think that it's 
possible...and maybe even probable that these brothers were set 
against each other so that the prophecies might unfold before 
our eyes giving ample proof of God before the end times.  A last 
chance to convince non-believers that he is very real.  Not 
necessarily his kind and loving side, but certainly his very 
powerful side.

What do you think?  

How old are you? 12 maybe? You certainly proved how ignorant you 
are. If you are older than 12 you better seek help as soon as 
possible.

1.In a free society such as the United 
States,U.K.,Europe,etc.;why is there freedom of choice in 
religion,or even choice of not to believe,without 
repercussions from said goverments or society in general?
(by  "repercussions", we are refering to 
imprisonment,beatings,public scorn,or even death.)

In any given democracy, the constitution protects individuals 
from other individuals. 
In the old world (since the Greeks, who invented these very 
principles) this principle was called bound liberty.
The democracy protects its' citizens only as long as these 
same citizens respect it's civil laws (and therefore each 
individuals' fellow citizen) and of course its' constitution.
In return the citizen who respects the lawmaker is protected 
by the very state.
The latter is the base of the very existance of the state, in 
wich laws are made by chosen representatives from these 
same citizens.
In the antique form of democracy, anyone actively going 
against the constitution OR not respecting law, was sort of 
placed "outside of" it.

Most Western democracies have never been confronted 
with religious groups that are potentially anty-democratic or 
able to bring political instability.
Lately however, an Immans in Europe has, for instance, 
openly declared to have understanding for the punishment 
of homosexuals.
Luckily he will probably be sentenced to jail for a few 
months, since homosexuals are treated like other citizens 
over there, unlike in Muslim states...

Then: 

Amsterdam, the Netherlands, november 29th:
The mayor of Amsterdam has received an official letter from 
rabbi Dr. R. Evers-Emden about the capitals' police forces' 
attitude.  
For years it has neglected complaints about anti-semitic 
behaviour by arabic speaking youths.
It has now become impossible for the rabbis' children to 
visit sinagog without being attacked and harassed by the 
same youths.
In the fifth, consecutive year of his complaining the rabbi has 
decided to launch an official complaint, finally...


What we want to say by this, dear E.S.D., is that a 
democracy can only offer freedom as long as it is not used 
against others with equal rights.
A society should give us all freedom but at the same time 
protect us from others who abuse it.
Most democracies are extremely reluctant to "adress" in a 
political or legal sense, religious groups, political parties or 
ethnic groups from within their society, simply because their 
freedom is guaranteed by its' very constitution.
As soon as these groups' behaviour becomes politically 
destabilising or a clear and proven danger to others (like, 
say, a nazi-statement)....
than that may change.  






2.In societies that control freedom of said choices;what is 
the purpose of that control over society?

Stability, in political, social and most importantly, 
economical favour of its' regime.
That is why it is not unusual for a regime to die, together 
with a head of state...
Usually, the constitution is also fully in favour of the regime, 
in contrast to a democracy where it is made for citizens.
When not, it is mostly manipulated. 
...Like elections in most these forms of state.




3.Regarding the war on terror;how do you feel about the 
relation between current affairs of now,and Isaac and 
Ishmael of old. Or does it relate?


Regarding the above, we think it not a good idea to relate to 
matters "of old". 
We rather see the democratic side of the world take its' 
responsibilities toward anyone posing a threat to it, instead 
of getting its' values get corrupted by propaganda in any 
religions' name.
We do not think this war relates to Isaac and Ishmael of old.
We are also convinced that it is better the other side in this 
war keep its' religious motivations to itself.
These religious motivations are getting more racist by the 
day. 
And we should be careful not to get dragged in to these 
religous visions.


This is about extreme violence, the abuse of a religion, vile 
propaganda,
the accumulation of poor peoples' frustrations, and the well 
organised canalisation of the resuting hatred towards for 
instance the U.S.A....

For even if our enemies were half the worlds' population, 
this cannot be tolerated in a modern, human world, 
for it would simply mean the end of it.




We excuse for our elaborate answers and for not answering 
them directly...


We highly value your posts, for none of us we think have 
come closer to the core of the matter as you have, so far...



From Europe, this was Radio Europe... 

  

Eagle, you posted:

Ive had my eye on those Cinema Displays since Internet 
World LA 
1999 !!! But alas, they say they cant be run on a pc ..... I 
envision instead of my dual 17" viewsonic flat screens 
connected 
to the Matrox G450 dualhead video card ..... two 24" Cinema 
Displays, mounted FLATLY on the wall :-)

Baaaangaaaaa!

I have never seen a better monitor picture than those 
demo'd at 
IW that day in 99 .... from a basic ATI graphics card no less - 
very cool stuff - hope your havin fun.

Thanks for the content!




Radio says:
...There's a gizmo, made by a company called "Dr. Bott" that 
allows you (and us too, by the way), to connect this baby to 
any computer)...

Gamin's freakin' orgastic on this thing...  Believe us,


RRRRRRadio Europe, from europe, hah

From: Missin' 
To: Ashraf 
Subject: Jesus 
Date: Wed Dec 5 02:11:28 2001 
Message:

Ashraf,


"Please don't try to interpret the Bible to serve your own 
agenda".




He has his Imman and Koran to do that for him...

Radio europe

Your Post:

"If only you knew who the real terrorists were, you'd know 
why 
they havent yet been arrested..."

You know that the brains behind all this do not reside in 
Palestine,

Radio Europe...




"Both Israel and the US make me sick, with their double 
faced 
policies.. and individuals, with their single tracked minds.. 
How the hell can any President be personally targeted..??"

Simply trying to protect his citizens from terrorists would do 
enough, we suppose, to make him a possible target...

Radio Europe...



"The US and Israeli acts are now the acts of terror.. 
Remember when I defined Terrorisim earlier as being 
anything/anyone who is an Anti-American/Anti-Jew? I guess 
I 
wasnt wrong now.. was I..?"

You were, wait and see what happens if terror strikes in 
Europe...

Oh, and by the way Ashraf, your attitude towards Jews is 
called racism over here...
We do not condemn muslims for their race. 
We despise their religion, because all too often it is 
politically active un an un-democratic, anti-progressive, anti 
multi-cultural manner.
As soon as their numbers reach "critical-mass" be it in 
Africa, India, Balkan states, Phillipines, Chechnia or 
wherever...

Radio Europe...  


"You are so blind.. Its sometimes DAMN funny.. yet I aint 
smiling..."

We are sorry for that, but we didn't post for the purpose of 
making you smile...

Radio Europe, from Europe, Good Night...

I am Catholic since birth, but prefer to be more SPIRITUAL 
versus religious.   I think too many religions use their own 
versions of bible, koran, etc. to their own liking.  My own 
experience is that MOST of these "holy rollers"  that dont miss 
a Sunday of Mass are the meanest, selfish sons of bitches 
around.  Biggest bunch of hyporcrites.  Not to say that ALL of 
them are like that, but I think religion breeds bad bedfellows.

From: om/cf 
To: all 
Subject: Premature Ejaculation 
Date: Wed Dec 5 07:21:34 2001 
Message:

"Maybe Isreal should leave the Palisinians alone. Seems 
like
half the time the suicide bombers make it a true suicide. 
Well
at least the last fellow got the bomb out of the house, but..."

But what if you're blamed fot his death in the end?

Radio Europe, From Europe...


but wait....   it  better like maybe seem half suicide bombers 
got the house out premature ejaculating at least the bomb 
to mecca?  

From: EagleEye 
To: ALL 
Subject: Nukes need no longer be out of the question 
Date: Tue Dec 4 21:27:46 2001 
Message:

"NEW YORK    Three months after the World Trade Center 
attack, 
victims' families are being forced to face the ghastly 
possibility that many of the dead were "vaporized," as the 
medical examiner put it, and may never be identified."

So I guess vaporizing terrorists is now an even handed 
retaliation ...... they selected jet fuel, we choose 
particles...... the difference is?"


The cost... and no-one left to send the bill for the airliners, 
the Pentagon and Twin Towers...

P.S. So what do you reckon the joint insurors would offer for 
his head?


Radio Europe...

Eagle,

"And let us not  forget ......... our new oil friend... Russia.  
Not real sure they are as Arab friendly as they might once 
have 
been.  So that'd likely be USA, Britain and Russia ..... and if 
it got really bad, Germany, Italy, Australia.  AND .... if it 
got really, really bad ...... the push of a few buttons makes 
baqarat out of all that fucking sand.  Interesting a Jew 
unleashed the science that will likely wipe out the Arabs .. in 
the long run.  Quite an Irony I say."

And let us not forget China, who are -to their extreme dislike- 
only beginning to experience trouble with Muslims. And who 
are only too eager to take part in a "new order" on world 
energy...

And let us not forget hydrogene, a form of energy that is right 
now getting its' biggest boost,  ever...


From Europe, Radio Europe...

Where was any GOD on September 11th?  What kind of god would 
allow hardworking people to meet such horrendous deaths. If you 
knw some of these victims loved ones like I do and see what they 
are going through, you would question God too.  He must have 
been asleep at the fucken wheel then!  Fuck Christmas too.  I 
dont mind if people have those little Christmas soldiers with 
the flags behind them, but to put Santas and big jolly HAPPY 
HOLIDAYS, etc. is horrible.  I cannot stand walking in the 
stores and hearing all this Christmas shit.  I am very BITTER 
that these people were slaughtered in that manner.  I am a bit 
closer to the situation than some of the posters on here and 
even if it were not my loved one, I feel DEVASTATED for the 
people that I know that are suffering and crying daily.  When do 
they get any deliverance?  What kind of God would take their 
children from them?  How are those parents supposed to go on 
living?  Can the Christmas music.  

Justice dear, I ache for you.  Truly, I do.  I can only imagine 
what it's like to live near the site of the devastating loss of 
life only weeks ago now.  

I hope that someday you'll be able to make your peace with God.  
I don't fully understand why God allows these things either, and 
I don't think now is the time to try to explain what I think to 
you...you are in too much pain now.

In the meanwhile, know that even though I don't know you, I love 
you.  And, I believe that God loves you, and all the people 
suffering in this world today, and all the people who died at 
the hands of 19 madmen.  I hope that in time it will get easier 
for you...when your grieving is done.

Hope you are feeling better these days.  Remember to walk around 
a lot to loosen up that tight knot from the operation.  

I hope that I can UNDERSTAND why on earth some of this shit 
happens.  I know the PERSONAL STORIES of the people involved 
that were murdered and I wont tell them on the internet but it 
makes it so VERY real.

I am sick over this.........................


Thanks for the kind words and understanding.

Dear Justice,

If there is god, he must have chosen you and all the others, 
suffering unmeasurably, especially now, as a warning to all  
the others who haven't yet suffered.

He may know,  or maybe even just hope,  that you are one  
the strong enough to understand his message if ever there 
was one for the dogs of violence out there, deprived of any 
ethics or feelings whatsoever.

He may want you to speak out the warning in your fiercest 
manner, that we have been neglecting for some twenty or so 
years.

Your message had us sit here in silence for minutes.

Today, some more young people have died on their mission 
for justice out there in the freezing cold.
Those waiting for them will also have the worst christmas, 
ever.

Their loss doesn't compensate your grief, but we are  sure 
their loved ones know why they went and lost their lives.

And they also won't be bothered by the religious excuses 
coming our way....   The "holy war"....

Keep speaking out  to us, it  may be as close to truth as we 
will ever come...



We all  feel for you, in honesty,

Radio Europe.

I was so very lucky that day.  My brother and my best friend 
were both scheduled to be in the towers that day.  Both 
cancelled last minute for different reasons.  The company I work 
for is based in New York, and some of the people I work with up 
there had spouses that normally WOULD have been at work in those 
buildings...but, for some mysterious reason(s) decided to take 
the day off or go in late.  I was incredibly lucky that out of 
20 or so people who could have died, all were saved.

There are 5000 plus tragic stories of that day.  The ones I've 
heard have broken my heart over and over again.  I do have to 
Thank God though, for the other 10,000 or more who might have 
died had the attack been later in the day.

None of it is pretty.  None of it seems fair.  

Justice, I wish I could share with you a picture I saw that was 
drawn by a 12 year old child in the days afterward.  It brought 
me comfort.  It was of Christ hovering over the towers with arms 
outspread welcoming the lost thousands home.  I believe that the 
ones who suffer most are the ones left behind.  The ones like 
you. 

I am not into any religion, but not anti-religion person either.
Being removed from the fray I understand your feelings right now.
If god is so loving and caring as all have been taught, how in
the hell do these things happen? But in the Bible (or Koran) it
says God will take care of us all, then the opposite happens.
Oh ya, some will tell you God has a plan, or God allows this for
a reason only he himself knows! Like George Carlin said, "if God
is all powerfull, can he make a rock so big even he himself cant
move it?"
 The Bible, the Koran and the rest were all written by ordinary
humans. All can be interpreted in countless ways depending on
what each person is looking for.
 Religion on a personal level seems great. Religion on the
higher levels, countries & leaders, seems to kill very 
effectivly.
But then what the hell do I know?

I think you're right.  I think maybe that was the point E.S.D. 
was trying to make with the triad of questions.  (Forgive me if 
I'm wrong about that E.S.D.) Religion itself can reduce hatred, 
bring healing and light into a sometimes dark world.  Religion 
in the hands of a Government is usually used for entirely the 
opposite purposes.

Hey om/cf.  Just wanted to let you know that Justice and Justice 
USA are two different people.  Not trying to be an anal 
retentive bastard.  I do agree though with some of the points 
Justice USA has made though, and some that you and Missin' have 
made.  If everyone would stop persecuting others for their race, 
religion, color, creed, or economic worth, then this world would 
be a much better place.

Noted. Hit the J key Justice popped up. Im lazy after work!

In answer, if a little late...

1. The nations and areas of the world you specified seem (but I 
stand ready to be corrected) to have, through their nation's 
constitutions, succesfully separated to varying degrees 
church/religion from the state. It may be debatable as to 
whether it is a panacea, but at a glance at least, countries who 
value secularism find it easier to have faiths that are able to 
co-exist alongside each other rather better than a nation which 
has theology as its principle priority. Any religious system no 
matter how valid (only in my opinion I hasten to add), that is 
in some way, a part of the ruling government of that country 
must surely be open to being compromised. Governments, and 
persons who constitute the government are in positions of power 
over the populace and over the nation they represent (or in many 
cases claim to). If a government's priority is to cling onto 
power, then any religion that is involved could also if not 
careful, take on that same mentality. In England, many of our 
indigenous population are babtised protestants overseen by the 
Church of England. An ever declining proportion of which , are 
not active in church attendance. Numbers may have stabilized 
now, or may even be increasing, I cannot give an informed 
opinion if that is the case. The general point, is that in a 
nation where religion is not deemed to be the be all and end 
all, there seems to be more freedom for people to choose not to 
worship at all, to change religions and if not accept, then at 
least tolerate other religious worship to some degreee. The 
building of mosques in their neighbourhoods for instance.

On a related issue, Oliver Cromwell who ousted Charles I in a 
bitter Civil War some years after the practice of Christianity 
in England had been reformed, put the state as represented by 
Parliament as his chief priority 'ahead' of religion, although 
he was very much a staunch protestant himself. Cromwell utterly 
refused to be made a King himself after all the effort he put in 
to removing the previous King. He ruled as 'defender of the 
nation' for some years during which he was the 'first' English 
ruler to allow the building of the very first synagogues in 
England. The influence of religion and the Monarhcy over 
government were never as powerful from his time in power. 
Britian as a nation, with these changes in place steadily grew 
more sucessful from then on.

2. Power corrupts...(if only if not careful!),Government in 
whatever form is absolute power, absolute power corrupts 
absolutely...(but again only if not careful!). If religious 
influence is prevalent in the upper reaches of government in the 
act of maintaining power...that religion's founding principles 
come under serious threat..and in time...the people who live 
under it, especially if they choose to practice another religion.

3. If those living in that region, base their history in these 
specific lines you highlighted, neither side in my opinion have 
any future. Such thinking will self-perputuate conflict 
indefinately. It is ALL TO EASY as an outsider to comment...but 
it is ONLY by having the courage to look forward to the future 
and not back to the past, that any future worth having, will 
ever be attained.  
         

Clayton Lee Waagner, the suspected author of hoax letters sent to 
abortion clinics that claimed to be contaminated with anthrax, 
was arrested Wednesday after eluding authorities for months, 
according to federal authorities.

Law enforcement sources said the arrest was made shortly after 1 
p.m. in the Cincinnati suburb of Springdale, Ohio, after an 
employee at a Kinko's photocopy store called the U.S. Marshals 
Service saying she believed Waagner was in the store.

"ThanksForYourReply"----it might even take longer than 
originally planed for our response.(smile)

You all have been very kind to us.
again,we thank you. 

we don't usually address many people on this board.
we usually just"report"and"read".
forgive us;but we would hope you would "respond" to our 
"three"questions. 
we feel it would further enlighten us.

Thursday, 6 December, 2001, 01:58 GMT 
Hamas beats off Arafat's forces


Gunmen from the Palestinian militant group Hamas freed their 
leader soon after he was placed under house arrest by 
Palestinian security forces. 
Hamas gunmen and security forces exchanged fire outside Sheikh 
Ahmed Yassin's Gaza City home before the security forces 
retreated.
 

Hamas has said it carried out the suicide bomb attacks on 
Israelis at the weekend which killed 25 people. 

The arrest attempt came as Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat 
asked for more time from Israel, which has suspended its 
retaliatory air strikes, to clamp down on militants. 

Thousands of people came out onto the streets to demonstrate 
against Sheikh Yassin's arrest after a call from loudspeakers at 
a nearby mosque. 

The 62-year-old leader, who is paralysed and virtually blind, 
was believed to be still inside his house on Wednesday night 
after the arrest attempt. 

However, Palestinian security forces did successfully arrest a 
number of other Hamas members on Wednesday, and Mr Arafat 
reported detaining a total of 151 suspected militants in recent 
days. 

BBC
---------------------------------------------------------- 

 Yessir, Yasser has it all under control, do not worry, his
police put on a good show, eye winks to the Hamas then fire
off some rounds over their heads and all have a good chuckle.
 "No! Not my helicopters! You Zionist bastards shall die! I mean
Im doing all I can to stop our people going into your shopping
malls and buses with bombs to "defend" themselves."
 Has anyone proposed a democratic election to the Palistinians?
And any suspected leader of terrorists cannot apply for the
job. Im not up on the historical or relgious history of the
conflict but as an average American citizen sees it, this is 
about the stupidist bunch of shit ever in the human history of
the world. If these were 2 kids fighting in my backyard, on and
on, not agreeing to settle it once and for all I would grab
them both by the hair and slam their heads together! Damn, if
only things could be so simple.
 Its apparent that Arafat has to go, he cant help his people and
he cant help Isreal. He is nothing. Even old terrorists have to
retire sometime.
 

At this moment, a lot of people have a wrong interpretation of 
Islam because of the recent event. To all the muslim who think 
the people who call for Jihad speak for GOD. The answer is NO

Religion are not to be force, you have to lead by your good 
example to attract others who are not in your religion to see 
that you are being taught well through your religion.

Yes I do agree all of us should fear GOD, doesn't your GOD teach 
you to forgive. Look at all around the world, where is the 
trouble region. Most of them are poor muslims region, and 
because of poverty they are easily influence into fighting for 
Allah by those muslims who want recognition for their own gain.

Look at the Philippines. Mr Misuari (muslim leader) was fighting 
for an independent muslim state in southern Philippines for many 
years with a lot of innocence civilian as well as his fighters 
and goverment forces been killed. After an agreement with the 
goverment in 1996 he is made a Governor in that states. He was 
given US$1 billion to improve his states as he ask for but spent 
most of his time in the luxurious hotel (sometime blocking a few 
floor) for what? You have to ask him. So for those 5 years the 
states did not improve but got worse with a lot of kinapping 
(penalty is death sentence in Quran) by muslim radical. You can 
read more about this group, the Abu Sayyaf. Now after five years 
governing or enjoying himself, it is time to change another man 
(also Muslim) to take his place. He did not agree and rebel 
against the goverment causing more than 100 lives and instead of 
fighting to the end as he always preach, he fled to Malaysia 
hoping that the Malasian goverment would except him because he 
did not want to give up his position as governor. Unforturnately 
for him the Malaysian goverment arrested him. So do you think 
this man is fighting for Allah? No way.

These countries would never grow economically or religiously. 
They will remain poor. No people around the world will want to 
go to these countries due to security reason.

Look at Malaysia under the rule of Dr Mahatir (muslim too). They 
too have problem with this type of radicals muslims who tried to 
disrupt the country but Mr Mahatir would not allow that to 
happen to their beautiful country. They were arrested and put 
behind bars. This country prosper and is now one of the leading 
country in Asean. They live in perfect harmony with Christian, 
Hindus, Buddism and others religion respecting each individual 
for their own belief.

So if you are really servant of Allah, pray to Allah that he may 
enlighten all these radicals through his power and make senses 
come to these radicals not for themselves but for their 
children, our children and all children of the world.

I believe that the world would be very happy and have peace, if 
all these radicals would just lay down their weapons, intention, 
greed and whatever and return to serving Allah in the correct 
way and show the world that Islam is Good and trust me, Allah 
would be very please because he know that people will see Islam 
as what it really is.

To all the muslims, be a good servant of Allah, pray for peace. 
Starting with you.

Face the fact, Isreal retaliation attack on Palestinian for the 
suicide bombing of Isreal, cost only a few lives. If they want 
revenge, how many lives would have been killed from their 
precision bombing.

They bomb the network of the palestinian leaders and do not 
intend to harm but with such massive attack definitely some 
would be killed.

The Palestinian (Hamas) on the other hand target civilians, in 
shopping mall, buses, cafeteria and many other innocence 
civilian places. You don't call these people hero. I am not 
talking about the one who died. They died thinking that they go 
to meet Allah as brain wash by their leader. Yes they would 
probably meet Allah because they innocently believe that what 
they do is right in the teaching of Islam but Allah is going to 
put it straight to them that they died for the wrong cause which 
only blemish the name of Islam but Allah will forgive them for 
their innocence.

The world is not blind or brainless. If you want the world to 
support the Palestinian cause you should not bomb innocence 
civilian but the Isreal Forces and their military bases. Then 
the world would be very fair.

U.S has seen the whole issue for so many years and had judge in 
fairness. So this make some muslim radicals angry and turn the 
suicide bombing to the US, killing not only US civilian but 
people from many countries in Sept 11. So what does the world 
think. Hey, we are innocence why kill my children because we go 
to US as a guest?

So my advise is, this war should be a war fought by true Muslim 
against Radicals muslim or terrorists. Where are the big Muslim 
countries, why are they not anything about this or are they 
radicals themselves?

Mr Bush put it very clearly. We shall fight terrorist (people 
who kill innocent civilian) and all those who harbour them. As 
he say this is going to be a very long war. I agree on that. The 
war is not only in Aghanistan. Their so many radical groups not 
only Al Qaida or Hamas. There are more than 20 group. Why so 
many group if they are fighting for the same cause (Allah) which 
they always say  so as to get support from innocence Muslim. No 
GOD teach you to go to War. G0D teach us to love. These leaders 
of the individual groups  who just want power and fame.

Thumb up for Mr Bush, Mr Blair and all the leaders of the world 
who support this cause of fighting terrorism, especially Gen 
Musharaf of Pakistan for his stand against terrorism in a  
strong Muslim country. May Allah shine his wisdom on you.

So lets us join hand and pray for world peace.

Dear Fact Finder,
Thank you so much for your post.  You have given me hope that 
there are many like you who truly understand what it is we are 
doing and why.  Your opinions mirror my own perfectly.

One excellent point that you made is this.  Why are there 20 
different terrorist groups all suposedly trying to serve the 
same purpose.  If there purpose was truly the same...to serve 
Allah, then why wouldn't they all work together.

I hope you'll stay around and visit with us here.  I appreciate 
your viewpoint very much.

Dear om/cf,
I have to agree with you.  I wanted to believe that Arafat was 
trying to work for peace, but I've lost patience with him these 
last few weeks.  Israel has said that they intend him no harm 
personally, but, perhaps it would be for the best if the 
Palestinians had a new leader with backbone.  I'd have thought 
that fear of our War on Terrorism would have had Arafat 
scrambling to stop the terrorist organizations in his country.  
Maybe he's just not been scared enough.

Sorry.Downloading some Turtles songs and thought I was lost in 
the 60's.

The Palestinian (Hamas) on the other hand target civilians, in 
shopping mall, buses, cafeteria and many other innocence 
civilian places. You don't call these people hero. I am not 
talking about the one who died. They died thinking that they go 
to meet Allah as brain wash by their leader. Yes they would 
probably meet Allah because they innocently believe that what 
they do is right in the teaching of Islam but Allah is going to 
put it straight to them that they died for the wrong cause which 
only blemish the name of Islam but Allah will forgive them for 
their innocence.

The world is not blind or brainless. If you want the world to 
support the Palestinian cause you should not bomb innocence 
civilian but the Isreal Forces and their military bases. Then 
the world would be very fair.



Comment: Now that is some precision bombing! Good work, we all
         hear of violence in the name of Islam, way to step up
         for the truth and not a political agenda reguarding
         religion.

Hi Ashraf, thanks for the news on Arab opinion. I guess I can 
see why we're not wanted there. It may be controversial, but I 
don't think that there is anything wrong with Israel targeting 
the heads of terrorist organizations. It is a matter of national 
security and it is a war initiated by those who wish to 
"liberate" Palestine. I really think that it is a hundred times 
better to target a military person during war rather than many 
civilians. This really is a case where "less is more". I think if 
the Palestinians really want to have a war they actually 
should target the Israeli Army with their suicide bombers. I 
have not often heard of a bomber blowing himself up near a 
military installation. For that matter, why not attempt to 
assassinate Sharon? I know it is crazy, but it makes more 
sense than killing a bunch of innocent Israelis. 

Crazy thought huh? My point is that if the palestinians want a 
war, they should be willing to fight it. 

Man, I wish America didn't have such a crappy image over 
there, but I know what it looks like. It's a big country with big 
businesses holding all the power and they just want their oil 
(that's actually not completely untrue). However, by far, most 
Americans are very compassionate people who do not want 
innocent people to die. I seriously cannot wait until there is a 
strong alternative to oil for energy and raw materials - Maybe 
then when we go in and try to get rid of a tyrant, it wouldn't be 
looked at as a ploy for oil. Oh well. Until then, I'll just have to 
let you know that most Americans find it horrible that 
thousands of children are dying in Iraq. The purpose of the 
sanctions is so Saddam couldn't build a military to threaten 
people with, but he has gone on to do just that and starved 
much of the population. I just wish the Iraqi's (who I know 
hate the man) would be willing to stand up and fight for 
themselves and for the benefit of their country. I know how 
much poverty there is and how things must feel impossible 
under the weight of such a regime, but there are so many of 
them! If they only knew their true power, they could stop him 
and enjoy the sort of wealth that your country enjoys. I don't 
see why it shouldn't be possible. 

Thanks again for your communication! 

FactFinder a question. Did you post as Truth on another board?
Your message was good there too. What country are you from?
 Missin, I just wonder how much control Arafat has over anything
in Palistinian areas. I just have a gut feeling, from what I have
read through internet scources other than U.S. that the younger
boys in Hamas and Islamic Jihad listen to him out of respect
then do whatever they please. But if that is the case, who does
Isreal negotiate anything with? If not Arafat Im sure the next
leader will be the Terrorist leader whith the most clout.
 Thats why Im wondering if the current situation can be turned
into a positive. Get beyond the suicide bombing planners to the
average people and have a real election of a leader.
 Damn Im getting tired, I must be dreaming, got to get some sleep
for work tomorrow. I have this weird dream of me killing Osama
slowly with my pistol crossbow.

The eyes of a child are prophetic enough - 
When I was a child they saw something beautiful
Beautiful and distant was something kind. 
More often my eyes saw flashes of terrible
Other eyes telling me that I was theirs
I ran as a child could run, away to the safety 
Of my mothers arms - but there was no peace there
I kept running and running because I had joined
The ranks of the attacked, the outcasts. 
Those dark red eyes threatened me nightly
In the morning I would wake up and start running
Until I ran, one morning, into my bedroom, onto my knees
Crying, "What have I done? Forgive my running"
The only answer I heard out loud was this, 
"NOAH! Get up" So I did. I got up and smiled 
Because I knew I would no longer have to run.
To repent means to turn around and to do that,
One must first stop running.

I wrote somewhat freely because it is not something I really 
can explain. To hear God and know in your inmost being 
that it is possible to be saved is something words cannot 
really describe. I pray for kingdom come - so I can hear that 
beautiful voice once again.

ouch...can't lift my fingers off the keyboard makes typing 
harder. People, I'm tired!! why do you make me come here 
and read everything you have to say? I like you guys!!!

HAHAHAA I'm going nuts now - If there's one thing I do know 
about God - He certainly doesn't mind if his children get 
some sleep! heehee. 

Goondight everybody.

Remember,America is one of the only nations on the earth that 
allow the general population the right to possess weapons.Unless 
Saddam's military turns against him it's not going to 
happen.We've been reminded just recently what rock-throwing will 
get you,and they were reminded in China not that long ago also.

I don't wanna understand nuthin' about terrorists or even Arabs. 
It's about time THEY understood that a sovereign state can and 
will defend itself.  This ain't bean-bag.  We won't lose. We 
will kill many people.  That's just the way it has to be.  If 
you doubt America's resolve, then there's somethin' else you 
need to understand.  

Maybe it is time to isolate again, but then we all know where 
that got us.....JB

Yeah!An we don ned none dat reedin an rightin shit niether.All I 
need is me a gun,a hors,an I got me a cell fone dat playz"Back In 
The Saddle Agin",instead of ringin.Aint dat a sumbitch?

Re:Dear Father G,
Thank you for your comments.  One thing I'd like to respond to 
is the requirement to witness...in your words meaning Mission 
work. (If I understood you correctly)

Dear Missin',
You are right on the money with your whole reply except for the 
above copied statement... As you put it so well, it's not the 
door to door people, which I also find brash and bold (just not 
my style)but rather the day to day "Living the Word" through our 
own examples of what we were taught about the life of Christ and 
how we should use His life as an example.  It is then that those 
who would come to know Him will come to you to find out how.  I 
have always felt that through out my entire life, I have only 
been the vessel from which the Words come from... I carry Him 
with me and I also am a sinner by my own admission but because 
of God's gift of Grace, I am able to go on and do what it is I 
feel that I'm being led to do in His name... 

Mission work actually has to start at home and reach out from 
that stable base... Kind of like a single drop of rain on a 
still pond. As Jesus came from Heaven to be born as a Man, the 
rain drop falls from the sky. when it hits the calm water, it 
penetrates the surface and from the point of impact several 
things start to happen. First there is a sort of crown effect 
that reaches up and out from that center point and a series of 
rings will then appear as the initial droplet actually is thrust 
back up above the water. The crown effect is kind of like the 
Apostles and then the followers after them are the ripples 
reaching out to spread the Good Word that there is LIFE after 
Death. The droplet going back up in the air has the symbolisim 
of Christ being risen. Then the droplet falls back into the 
water again, causing more ripples. That would be the second 
comming and if watched, the waters ripples then are spread out 
until they reach the shores on all sides and the waters are then 
calmed again. 

That whole time you see the water ripples moving outwardly think 
of those who are spreading the Word...Some of the ripples will 
go through rushes and weeds and will never reach the shore but 
it is not for the lack of not trying. Some ripples will be cast 
onto rocks which will cause a backwards motion of that ripple 
which is the conflicts we run into on a daily basis. It doesn't 
stop us but it does change the direction in which we were headed.
Depending on the distance a ripple travles before it reaches the 
other shore, it can loose a lot of it's strength which is why 
there are ripples comming in from behind the first ones out 
there. Those are the ones still trying to reach those who have 
yet to really hear the Word. And the next set of ripples are 
doing the same until that Droplet comes back down to hit the 
water again strengthening the rippled effect and making it 
stronger and still continues to reach out to those willing to 
receive the Word.

Sorry about the long analogy but I hope you found your message 
here. You do not have to leave your home to find those in 
need....just look around you... 

I have also not been very kind to some on this and other boards 
and for that I am sorry but I'm not sorry for doing the Lord's 
work in whatever fashion it presents itself...  I've also taken 
a beating and a few tounge lashings here but that is expected 
when you find yourself picking up the cross.  Once the Spirit 
has come into your life, you can't help yourself because the 
control is not yours...you are moved to where you are needed, 
even if it involves hitting your head against the rocks... 
Humility is not a bad lesson to be learned and we should all be 
so lucky to experience it on a regular basis...I had more but 
I'm exhausted and am in need of rest...<><...<><...<><...F.G.+

If you are trying to be sarcastic, then you make sense, but if 
not then what are you trying to say?

I did not mean you Guido.

JB

I will talk to you tomorrow and if desired, we can continue our 
conversation on theology or whatever you would like...<><..F.G.+

What do you mean by your last statement?

Just to continue on where our phone conversation ended tonight. 
Just in case there is another J.B. out there the real one will 
understand....If not, he'll just have to have another LIMON'...
<><...<><...<><...F.G.+

FOOTPRINTS--------I don't know if you are all familiar with this 
work; I would send the whole poem, if I had it (I Can't find it 
right now).  Anyways the gist of it is that no matter how 
difficult things get the Lord is the one who carries you 
through.......JB

Everyone please have a safe Holiday season.

the pervading lesson in all the strifes the world is witnessing 
is the need to be tolerent. however the very word tolerence 
might smack of negativism , yet that seems to be the only safer 
and saner option for all to follow in these troubled times.well 
lets hope that these events (all acts of aggression including 
the state aggression by the USA) might teach the humankind to be 
more loving and caring and not to cry foul only when our 
neighbourhood is attacked but to fight violence and aggression 
where ever it occurs. even ifthe offender be a super power let's 
voice our opposition in one voice.

shanks

Be a little more tolerant to people eating breakfast please.
You just made me puke,
skanks a lot

It is you who needs a history lesson. Why do you think the bible 
pits man against man? Just when  do you think it was written?
                     Go figure

Jacob's pillow is crying. 

A dictator afraid of his own blood,
using death on his own soil.
His evil brings evil like silt in a flood,
The cry of his land, like a snake in a coil.
Saddam has killed any hope of his people,
and blamed it on a Christian steeple.
The starvation blamed on the west,
His oppression and evil put to the test.
Saddam works his alchemy for the destruction of man
He does his sick deed and blames whoever he can.
Uncle Sam, he says is the one to blame,
As he holds our sanctions out in his hand.
His own people he kills with his game,
And the blood of Muslims runs in the sand.

Hey Mr. know it all, go figure this. WE ARE ALL GOD'S CHILDREN!
Not just YOU! And YES I AM PLENTY PISSED OFF! You think you know 
it all, well figure this, God is pissed too. I am sick of self 
rightous religious freaks! We all are one, not the Jews, not the 
Muslims, and not the people who carry a crucifix around their 
necks, a symbol of ROMAN OPRESSION! If you beleive in Christ, 
loose the cross! His death was a reality, but his life was his 
message! The bible will be the blueprint of religious 
EXTRTEMISTS, but not good enough for the Mohammad! he wrote his 
own HATE MANUAL! Wake up! get your head out of the writings of 
religious EXTREMISTS! if we don't then bend over and kiss your 
ass goodbye! 

Seeing as you see yourself as being qualified to represent God's 
son, so to speak, who according to scripture, performed 
miracles, perhaps you could grace us all with a miracle of your 
own...

...such as writing something intelligent perhaps. 

Missin',
I am not quite sure exactly what part of my post you disagree 
with.  If you would clarify I will gladly respond.

I have, in fact, read the entire Left Behind series except for 
Desecration.  While the series is fictional it is indeed based on 
what the Bible describes as the tribulation period.  I do believe 
that the world will be torn in ways it has never known.  The 
thing that people must realize is that the tribulation is not a 
time for God to "punish" those who do not believe but it is 
actually a last ditch effort for him to show His mercy.  An 
important point to remember is that the rapture will not happen 
until every people group has heard the gospel.  Every person will 
have made a choice either to hear and accept or reject Christ 
BEFORE the rapture.  The tribulation is to give those that reject 
Christ yet another chance to avoid living eternity in hell.

I cannot bring myself to call you God's son, please forgive me.  
God gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN son so that we might have eternal 
life.  That said, yes, I agree we are ALL God's children.  God 
is my Father, yes.  But, when you come in here with THAT name 
blaspheming God by setting yourself against the rest of God's 
children and speaking in the most foul language you can...it 
puts a very bitter taste in my mouth.  It bothers me that you 
feel that it's ok to represent God in that way.

Do you take issue with the fact that Christ was born 2000 years 
ago?  Here is the history I know, feel free to enlighten me if 
you know differently.  First there was God, all of us worshipped 
him...Jews, Muslims, and Christians.  Then came Christ 2000 
years ago...that was the division between the Jews, and the 
Christians (I now understand that many Muslims were Christians 
too for a time...is that right Ashraf?)  Then came Mohammed, and 
thus the division of the Christians and the Muslims...for they 
believe that Mohammed was God's final and most exalted prophet.

I would never dream of speaking for God...I think he might 
be "pissed" too, but I also don't think he'd like me speaking 
for him about his feelings on these current affairs since he 
hasn't told me directly how he feels.

We are all angry here.  We are all sad too.  Most of us are here 
to try to understand all the factors (the shades of gray).  It 
is only the very young who can believe that everything is only 
black or only white.

Feel free to stay and join the conversation, if you are looking 
for knowledge and understanding.  If you just came to hear 
yourself yell...well you did that.  But, it adds nothing of 
value to the rest of us.

God Bless

Good Morning Smiley!
I'm sorry, that really wasn't very clear, was it. I had to look 
back myself to remember.

You had said that you believed that God didn't set brother 
against brother...that like with Cain and Abel, it was the 
presence of sin...jealousy, greed, etc...that sets brother 
against brother.

I was just wondering out loud if God might NOT have set brother 
against brother in the case of Isaac, then Esau and Jacob, in 
order to provide us proof before the end days that the 
prophecies of the Bible are true...thus proving his own 
existence to us before it's too late for us.

In your theory, it's chaos, sin, and our own natures that has 
brought us to this point.  In mine, it's proof that God loves us 
all enough to attempt (over and over) to prove his existence to 
us in order to try to save us.  I guess I'd just like to believe 
that even though this was a harsh way to go about it, that God 
loves us that much.  

Does that make more sense?  It's all theory anyway, only God 
knows the answer...but, it was an intriguing thought.

Hi Noah,
Sorry I missed you last night.  Yes...I DO know the sound of his 
voice...and the touch of his hand...and the joy that swept over 
me as I was forgiven and claimed.  It's amazing, isn't it?  
Thanks for sharing!  One day I'd like to tell you about my 
experience.

You said, "I am sick of self rightous religious freaks!"

Then what the hell are you?  Are you sick of yourself?
You are just as bad.  You condemn everyone else's religion and 
think yours is the best.  What makes you right?  When you force 
your beliefs on people, you only push them further away.  If you 
would educate instead of attack then maybe you would have 
somewhat of an audience.  You are the perfect example of when 
religion breeds hate.

In case you haven't seen, the names and ages of our three lost 
soldiers were published this morning.  I hope that all of you 
who pray will take a moment today to say a short prayer for 
these brave men.

Officials identified the victims as Sgt. 1st Class Daniel Henry 
Petithory, 32, a communications specialist; Master Sgt. 
Jefferson Donald Davis of Elizabethton, Tenn.; and Staff Sgt. 
Brian Cody Prosser, 28, of California. All three were special 
forces soldiers stationed at Fort Campbell, Ky.
       

Yesterday on Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed 
above 10,000 for the first time since August 28th, and the 
Nasdaq closed above 2000 for the first time since August 7th.

Yesterdays rally effectively erases ALL of the financial damage 
done by the Sept. 11th attacks to American investors.  

Didn't last as long as you thought, did it Osama?  See, you 
killed some of us, but you didn't kill our industry.  You didn't 
kill our spirit.  You didn't kill AMERICA!

Excerpted from article on MSN this morning.

       U.S. defense officials told MSNBC that they could not 
confirm the report. But Kenton Keith, the former U.S. ambassador 
to Qatar who serves as spokesman for the coalition of U.S.-led 
forces in Afghanistan, said at a news conference in Islamabad, 
Pakistan, that  you should ... take seriously reports that 
Mullah Omar himself is negotiating to save his own skin.  
        I can tell you authoritatively that some of Mullah 
Omar s most senior commanders are negotiating their own 
surrender,  Keith said. 

I can see where you would deduce that I adhere more to a chaos 
theory than a devine plan in my post.  I apologize, I did not 
intend for it to come across this way.  There is nothing chaotic 
about God's plan.  It may seem that way at times but only because 
we are limited in our vision of the 'big picture.'  I simply 
meant to indicate that God does not 'cause' strife between people 
but will use, for His devine purpose, any circumstance that 
brings about the completion of His plans.  He even takes what 
Satan intends for evil and brings good out of it.  The fact that 
he transcends time in a way that we cannot allows Him see all 
things past and present and future and then use people, such as 
the prophets, to help us find our way to Him.

I hope that helps.  I cannot really seem to put into words 
exactly what I mean and for this I apologize.

You have all read my creative works, just under a different 
name. The rant I gave in this name is for those who have fouled 
the name of Allah! For this I Curse! For this I Scream! Osama is 
a bastird! He is NOT A MUSLIM. He is using the meek to further 
his madness! He defiles all who revere GOD! Religious extremists 
are holy rollers in the worst sense! Those in the UK seem to 
forget Jacob's pillow! and their occupation of Afghanistan! How 
convenient! Well read the books, you are the Crusaders, 
remember? King George? Revolutionary war? Everyone seems to just 
remember what they find convenient to put the blame on others! 
And yes YOU said don t make god come down here, remember 
Father?? Before you speak for GOD hold your tong, you have no 
more right than anyone else. Do you figure yourself divine? more 
so than others? Well guess again. WE ARE ALL GOD'S Children! Not 
just one religion or another! 
  I will hold the slander and vile language in respect for your 
dominion, but for those who defile the many faces of god in the 
name of hate and war, HOLY WAR!, I curse! And I swear! 
  Religious Dogma is bad for the world  no matter who spouts it. 
It breeds contempt and fear. God is not to be feared! God is 
LOVE. Be at peace, I am a man of many tempers, but for god I 
have only respect. Before you tell people how to act, loose the 
dogmatic references to the books written by those who hate! I do 
not impose my religion on anyone as you say. I abhor those who 
do! You however do impose your religion on others, don t you?  

You'll have to forgive me, Jacob's pillow and the escapades of 
the British in Afghanistan was a little before my time, and as 
such not my personal responsibility. I would not, out of 
respect, ask you or anybody else for that matter, to take 
responsibility for your country's past misdemeanours, because 
virtualy every single nation on this planet has periods in it's 
history that do not hold up well to scrutiny. As you are well 
aware, it is easy for you to pointscore, as you'll neither give 
your country of origin or the previous 'handle(s)' you claim to 
have used. If you readily choose this form of deceipt WHY should 
anybody rely on your integrity as an individual or the integrity 
of the content of your posts? It really does not inspire 
admiration. The reason I personally responded to your first post 
as 'God's son' was that you deliberately used profanity and 
religious references that were solely used to get a reaction 
from contributors on this board. A pattern that is sadly 
becoming an all too familiar one. 

Do you have the HONESTY to throw some light on who you 
previously posted as? Do you have the integrity to apologise for 
ANY of your actions so far?

The one thing we can agree on sir, is that we are all God's 
children.   

Religious Dogma is bad for the world  no matter who spouts it.

EXACTLY.

It is ALL TO EASY as an outsider to comment...but 
it is ONLY by having the courage to look forward to the future 
and not back to the past, that any future worth having, will 
ever be attained. In this you ring truth. Bury those damn books 
telling people the world order according to them.  
         

I just have one question:Does your psychiatrist charge you per 
disorder?Or just one flat rate?

I cannot UNDERSTAND how the fuck Bush can "sympathize" with the 
terrorist taliban rat John Walker and call him a "poor fellow" I 
mean, gimme a fucken break....I thought Bush was getting tough.  
This Walker douchebag should be considered an enemy of the 
American people, guilty of treason and PUT TO DEATH ASAP!  Thank 
God, at least former military chiefs and war veterans have the 
sense to want him tried for treason.  Who gives a flying fuck if 
John Walker was "misled"?  Why is it so hard for Bush to admit 
that this scumbag is a despicable traiter?  Four years ago, this 
fucker picked up the Koran in one hand and the Autobiography of 
Malcolm  in the other.  Changed his name to Hamid  grew a beard, 
wore a sissy skirt, and dreamed of killing Americans for the 
taliban all the while living in California.  BUSH WHAT THE FUCK 
MESSAGE ARE YOU SENDING OUT?  This is why America becomes a 
laughing stock to the world.  I mean, it is stupidity like this, 
that makes us look like a bunch of fucking pansies.  I support 
Bush, but cannot for the life of me, understand WHY HE IS 
SHOWING SYMPATHY FOR THIS TRAITOR?  What about all the shit 
talking about destroying all those that support the taliban?  
Goddammit this rips me a new asshole folks..........

Now you're starting to understand my anger.

As most of you know, I am Catholic and my people come from 
Austria.  I actually lived in Austria for awhile when I was a 
child and too young to know about the Hitler regime and 
persecution of the Jews.  I remember Austria as a beautiful 
hilly place where I could lie on my back and pick flowers and 
watch the clouds roll by to young to know that this was the same 
sky and beautiful trees and flowers that bore witness to the 
millions of poor jews that were slaughtered.  I was only about 
five at the time and knew nothing of this.  When I was about 
seven or eight, a lot of us Austrian/german kids were taunted in 
school and called NAZIS.  I learned to be ashamed of being 
german and I still feel that same half a century later.  I would 
watch the Sunday evening History show that taught me more about 
the monster Hitler and saw the depiction of jews stick thin 
being thrown into mass graves.   I can never hold my head high 
and be proud of my heritage because of this.  I take on the 
shame of what happened in Austria and it is a hangup I still 
need to work on.

You better believe I have sympathy for the Jews.  My own 
personal friendships with Jewish people during my lifetime have 
been very positive. Jews can be VERY GENEROUS people and if 
someone wants to talk about cheap or thrifty, I have some German 
relatives that would make a penny sqeak.  Now, my first 
experience with having a Jew Friend was when I came back from 
Austria in the mid 1950's.  My Mom had a wonderful Jewish friend 
by the name of Estelle Shapiro that used to live at 55 Central 
Park West.  When my Mom first came to this country, she worked 
as a domestic for Mrs. Shapiro, and Mrs. Shapiro and her doctor 
husband treated her like one of the family.  Even years later, 
after she stopped working for them, they remained good friends.  
Mrs. Shapiro would give me beautiful expensive dresses and shoes 
that her daughter had outgrown, took me to the temple, and also 
gave me a lovely Thanksgiving treat by having me to her house on 
Thanksgiving so I could see the parade right in front of her 
house.  Mrs. Shapiro would take me to lovely restaurants and buy 
me nice dinners, the real swank type of restaurants, where they 
gave you slices of lemon in a bowl to dip your hands into.  

I will always have sympathy for the jews and am so proud of NOT 
being anti semetic.  My symapthizes go out to all the poor 
people in Israel that are getting killed on a daily basis. 

They say that jews are God's chosen people, but it seems that 
they are almost God's scapegoats for all the decades of  pain 
that they have been forced to endure.  The fact that New York 
City has a large Jewish population certainly made the horrible 
Twin Towers tragedy more plausible.

With all that is going on, He'll be a millionare! but no I am 
saner than you might think, just really angry at the post from 
the self rightous Muslim telling everyone he is going to 
paradise. You might get a clue as to how angry if you think out 
of the box for just a minute. I know it is hard to do after a 
life of religious conditioning. But just this once think about 
it from the standpoint of no religion at all.

i hate you you suck big donkey nuts thanks for listening

You will have to find someone else to discuss religion with.

I feel as if u did nothing to all of us american but all u did 
is fuck ureself so have fun with it in your ass. fucker! Osama 
needs to go lick his wifes nasty clit.

12/01/2001: "A defecting German intelligence officer 
provides more insights on a possible Jarrah-Abu Nidhal 
link" 


Washington-Al-Mutamar

Referring to a story in last week s Al-Mutamar about the 
relationship between Assem Omar Al-Jarrah (Born 1962 in 
Lebanon) and the Fatah Revolutionary Command group 
lead by the infamous terrorist Sabri Khalil Al-Banna (Abu 
Nidhal), an INC security official has stated that more details 
on this relationship can be found in the published 
revelations made by a defecting Stasi officer who fled to the 
West on New Year s Eve 1990.

Citing German press reports and security sources, 
Al-Mutamar had revealed in its previous issue that Assem 
Al-Jarrah, the grand uncle of Sept. 11 hijacker Ziyad 
Al-Jarrah, was an informer for the Stasi since the 
mid-1980s, and had links to the Abu Nidhal organization, 
currently based in Baghdad, and that Assem Al-Jarrah could 
have been one of the channels that introduced the Iraqi 
General Intelligence Directorate (GID) to the Hamburg 
terrorist cell led by Muhammed Atta in early 1999, through its 
agent the Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidhal who was hosted 
by Baghdad from 1970 to 1983 and then again in the early 
nineties and has been in Baghdad since December 1998 
according to press reports, and in living at Al-Makasib 
village near Saddam International Airport and is being 
treated by Saddam s personal doctors for leukemia.

The source stated that Colonel Rainer Wiegand of the Stasi, 
who was in charge of its counterespionage section and 
supervised the files of foreigners in East Germany, and who 
defected with a suitcase containing secret documents to the 
West 11 years ago, had told his debriefers from several 
Western intelligence services that one of his agents, 
codenamed  Carsten Berg  (Der Spiegel, which broke the 
story of the Abu Nidhal-Jarrah connection in its November 5 
issue had established that  Assem Omar Jarrah  was 
codenamed  Carsten Berg  in his secret file no. 
15/1309/85), had undergone an attempt to recruit him into 
the Abu Nidhal organization during April 1988 by a person 
codenamed  Hassan  in East Berlin, who had threatened 
him with physical liquidation if he revealed this recruitment 
attempt to anyone. Col. Wiegand began investigating this 
 Hassan  and found out that he was also working for the 
Stasi and was being supervised by one of Wiegand s 
friends, Col. Wolfgang Stuchly.

 Hassan  was an assistant professor of life sciences at 
Liepzig University (known between 1956 and 1993 as Karl 
Marx University) in southern Germany, and Wiegand could 
not specify to his debriefers if  Hassan  carried Iraqi or 
Syrian citizenship but he had been granted political asylum 
in East Germany since the mid-1970s. He was a radical 
fundamentalist who hated the West and especially hated 
Western influences on Arab societies and had a deep 
problem with women.  Hassan  volunteered his services to 
the Stasi upon his arrival in Germany and managed to 
expose tens of illegal financial rings run by Iraqi and Syrian 
and Libyan diplomats as part of a clandestine sting 
operation conducted by the Stasi codenamed  Operation 
Trader .

Col. Stuchly confessed to his colleague that he had always 
been perplexed as to why  Hassan  never provided any 
information on terrorist networks or espionage throughout 
the time he was actively exposing the illegal activities of 
Arab diplomats over the span of seven years during which 
he was being supervised by Stuchly. The Stasi did not know 
that  Hassan  had any links to Abu Nidhal until he tried to 
recruit Assem Al-Jarrah. Consequently, the Stasi conducted 
a wide surveillance operation on the movements of 
 Hassan  and Wiegand ordered Assem to have one of his 
underlings join the Abu Nidhal group. After several weeks of 
monitoring his movements, it became clear that  Hassan s" 
chief role was acting as a spotter and recruiter for Abu 
Nidhal, and while he reported on the illegal activities of Arab 
diplomats, he made sure to maintain his own rapport with 
them on behalf of Abu Nidhal (who resided for long periods 
of time in both Syria and Libya, as well as Iraq), and one of 
 Hassan s  regular contacts was the Libyan intelligence 
officer of Palestinian descent working in the Libyan 
Embassy in East Berlin, Yasser Chraidi, who was the 
mastermind of the La Belle disco bombing during April 
1986 in West Berlin that claimed the lives of two U.S. 
servicemen and a Turkish woman, and who was sentenced 
to life imprisonment by a German court just last week for his 
role in the bombing 15 years ago.

Wiegand and Stuchly planned to arrest  Hassan  but the 
head of the Stasi, General Erich Mielke prevented them from 
doing that and closed the case. It should be noted that the 
Stasi was selling weapons to Libya through Abu Nidhal who 
in turn cashed in on sizable commissions, and some 
reports have claimed that he was in East Germany during 
1985 and had given his word to the Stasi that he would not 
conduct any activities in their country.

The INC security official added that  Hassan  is the key to 
the mystery of the possible link that occurred between the 
GID and Abu Nidhal on the one hand and Assem and Ziyad 
Al-Jarrah and Muhammed Atta on the other, saying,  the 
psychological profile of Hassan is very similar to that of 
Muhammed Atta, and it is not far fetched that Assem 
Al-Jarrah, who was suffering from financial woes, had 
maintained a channel of communication with Hassan and 
told him that his relative Ziyad had met a group in Hamburg 
in 1998 that was both willing and the able to participate in 
clandestine and terrorist activity, and then Hassan told Abu 
Nidhal who in turn went to his sponsors in the GID .

The source added that in the absence of tangible evidence 
then this scenario requires further and deeper investigation 
and said that German intelligence officers are taking a very 
good and long look at the this trail. The source claimed that 
 Hassan s archival file is missing and could have been 
destroyed in the last days of the Stasi and nothing is known 
of Hassan after the collapse of the Iron Curtain . 
Furthermore, Assem Al-Jarrah s file had been tampered 
with and  combed  according to Der Spiegel Magazine and 
is missing much of its content, especially the records 
dealing with his relative Refet Al-Jarrah, who was also 
working for the Stasi. The source added that many of the 
missing files could be in the possession of the Central 
Intelligence Agency (CIA) that managed tp capture large 
amounts of sensitive files from the Stasi archives and have 
them shipped to the United States right after the fall of the 
Communist regime.

The source lamented the death of Col. Wiegand in a 
mysterious car accident in Portugal during 1996 that also 
killed his wife. After his defection, Wiegand warned Western 
intelligence officials of the effectiveness of the Iraqi GID and 
informed them that there were 14 Iraqi GID officers carrying 
German names in East Germany and that the GID had also 
succeeded in recruiting many Germans to work for Iraq. 
Wiegand often said that he had never encountered any other 
foreign intelligence service that behaved in the cruel manner 
of the Iraqi GID. It should be noted that Wiegand was the 
lead witness in the trial of Yasser Chraidi that started in 
1996, but he was killed before providing his testimony.

However, Col. Wolfgang Stuchly (Stasi file number: 
090734429718:99:02:00) is still alive and some reports 
have him working in a sausage stand in Alexanderplatz in 
Berlin, and he was known to secretly despise the 
Communist regime, especially its ties to terrorists, and 
could be helpful in determining the identity of  Hassan , in 
order to have Federal agents interrogate him. Moreover, 
Assem Al-Jarrah has been missing since Sept. 11 and 
could be hiding in Lebanon, and throughout the nineties he 
was in the business of supplying pharmaceutical and 
medical supplies to Libya through two companies he 
owned in Griefswald, but he was grappling with bankruptcy 
since 1997.

That's very good!Now hold still while get your little shoes 
on.We're going to the Mall,and if you're good you'll get some 
gum.

Last night I watched 20/20, with Barbara Walters interviewing 
President and Mrs. Bush.  

Barbara was going back to the events of 9/11 and they showed a 
clip of President Bush sitting in a second grade classroom, and 
his staff aid giving him the news that a second plane had 
crashed into one of the twin towers.

I say there is NO WAY this man knew that this was going to 
occur.  To implicate him in this 'conspiracy' theory is a load 
of *#%*!

The first thing he does EVERY morning is to go through & 
prioritize the 'threat list'; Many of which are threats to his 
life and that of his family.

(how's that for breakfast fare, OM/CF?)

Call me foolish, but I believed him when he said that we need to 
work toward peace--that we need to find a way to resolve our 
differences in a peaceful manner, and provide a world for our 
children and grandchildren where they can live in peace.  

I have not been a Bush supporter in the past; as Barbara was 
interviewing him, though, I tried to picture Gore sitting in 
that chair, and I just couldn't do it.  

A friend of mine once told me that God does not CAUSE bad things 
to happen--(man has freedom of choice) but is there to help us 
through those difficult times.

I agree with what Everyman stated to Justice USA.  God does NOT 
cause bad things to happen.  There are several reasons why a 
person or persons will experience difficulty and pain.

1. Sin - It is the whole process of sowing and reaping.  If you 
sow sin you reap pain, discontent and, yes, sometimes even death.  
If a person is promiscuous they should not blame God if they 
contract some terrible disease.  The same goes for smoking.  I 
HAD a friend who smoked since she was 14 and then blamed God for 
the lung cancer that killed her when she was in her fifties.

2. Evil - Evil is no respector of persons.  Any person under an 
evil influence does not care who or how they hurt another.  
Their only goal is to consume who they may in their hate and 
woundedness.  Just like the men who hijacked the planes in 
September.  They did not care at all who, specifically, was IN 
the buildings as long as they could kill...many.

3. Nature - Their are things that just happen in this world.  
Hurricanes are a natural phenomenon.  Regretfully, not everyone 
can escape the terrible destruction that comes in the wake of 
these storms.  There is no evil or good influence it just happens 
and sometimes people get hurt and sadly even die.

Now, on the side of God.  While He does not cause these things to 
happen to people, He is there under every circumstance.  I 
have heard story upon story of miracles just from the events of 
9/11.  These stories come not just from believers but also from 
people who, previous to that date, had rejected God.

****************************************

1.In a free society such as the United 
States,U.K.,Europe,etc.;why is there freedom of choice in 
religion,or even choice of not to believe, without 
repercussions from said goverments or society in general?
(by  "repercussions", we are refering to 
imprisonment,beatings,public scorn,or even death.)

In the words of our forefathers:


'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are 
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with 
certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty 
and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, 
Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers 
from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of 
Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of 
the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new 
Government, laying its foundation on such principles and 
organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most 
likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, 
will dictate that Governments long established should not be 
changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all 
experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, 
while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by 
abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a 
long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the 
same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute 
Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off 
such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future 
security'


2.In societies that control freedom of said choices; what is 
the purpose of that control over society?


Just that--CONTROL
POWER
An imposition upon and manipulation of others for the benefit of 
a few.  Talk about an abusive relationship!

(A feeling of inadequacy, perhaps?)




3.Regarding the war on terror; how do you feel about the 
relationsip between current affairs of now, and Isaac and 
Ishmael of old. Or does it relate?

I think it does relate.  It is part of the  collective 
consciousness  that we all hold within us.
For many, Ishmael is regarded as the  illegitimate  son.  
Ishmael is equated with stubbornness, violence, and 
irrationality.  In the words of Swedenborg:

 People whose rationality consists only of truth--even though it 
is truth that comes from faith--and not of the good of kindness 
also, are of this character. They are quick to find fault, make 
no allowances, are against all, regard everyone as being in 
error, are instantly prepared to rebuke, chasten, and punish, 
show no pity, and put no effort or energy into redirecting 
people's minds. They view everything from the standpoint of 
truth, and nothing from the standpoint of goodness. In short, 
they are hard people. 

 He shall be a wild donkey.  His hand against all.  Genesis 16:12

Issac, on the other hand, is represented by spiritual 
rationality, peacefulness, returning good for evil; instead of 
fighting for land and wells, he went out and found new land, and 
after a time had people coming to him for advice on how to live 
peacefully; even his enemies.

So yes, we have those who wish to fight and those who wish to 
live in peace.

'They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears 
into pruning hooks.
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation. Neither shall 
they learn war anymore.'
Isaiah 2:4 

Don t you think it s time for  Ishmael  to wake up and smell the 
coffee?  No good is being accomplished by imposing violence upon 
others.

Well guess what. seems all we can do is disagree. Sound familiar?
Walter, we said no religion, remember? Well... just goes to 
show. God's son addressed it to the servant of Allah, and all 
you Bozo's chimed in! was it addressed to you?? NO! So WTF? All 
you can do is point point point! No one can be better than you! 
        Go to the pointless forest arrow! But don't goof with 
the bees! or are you too young to remember that story? think 
hard!

Forgive my hate, cast my hate into the fire of hell.
              For those who care,
              So do I. But for those who spout hate..
                So can I.

Just wanted to say Hi and let you know that I heard  from my son 
today....He's fine and somewhat homesick but,for the most part 
in good spirits..He couldn't go into much detail on the 
situation over there. Hopefully I will here more soon

I bet that is one long list right about now!
 I watched most of interview last night too and, JusticeUSA,
and my take was Bush was about to burst laughing when Bahbwaaa
brought up Johnny Walkers name, either that or the name brought
back fond memories of some good partys. 
 I voted for Bush and felt good about it, which never happens for
me in a Presidential election, and I also block out any image
of Gore trying to handle all this crap. The whole ballot counting
and the new science of Chad just cracks my ass up now! I wonder
if Gore looks at the news and says "whew, that could have been 
me"!

In relaying these two opposing opinions to you, I am allowing 
myself some editorial licence Om/cf, by stating formerly that I, 
in large part, disagree with the anti-war stance and agree in 
large part with the pro-war stance.

Anti-Opinion: Dated 2 Dec 2001 (Sunday Express, Tabloid U.K.)

(Former Express war reporter in Afghanistan, Yvonne Ridley)


Title: Why I have to speak out against war.

...I am not a political person, nor am I a member of any 
pressure group, and I am not anti-war. I am a reporter, not a 
commentator and I do not usually address personal opinions. 
However, I do have a story to tell and I have decided to tell it 
to anyone who will listen. On November 18, I gave my "peace" 
message to between 80,000 and 100,000 people who, like me, are 
against this war. Although my knees were trembling, I relayed my 
story about Kama Village (subjected to U.S. bombing). The Yvonne 
Ridley I used to know would not have dared, or cared, to address 
such a meeting.

There is a huge tide turning against this war and it has the 
authorities worried. This was illustrated by the London 
Metropolitan Police's statement which said 15,000 turned up at 
Trafalgar Square when it was plain to see that there were at 
least four times as many. They say truth is the first casualty 
of war and it's now lying in intensive care.

I don't know how long my "15 minutes of fame" will last but I 
intend to make use of every second to highlight the injustices 
of this war and the humanitatian disaster. I cannot stand 
shoulder to shoulder with George W Bush and Tony Bliar. I am 
not "with" Osama Bin Laden.

The life of one innocent Afgahn is as important as the life of 
one innocent American but that is not the message we are hearing 
from our "friends" over the Atlantic. I still feel a gut-
wrenching ache for the people of New York and Washington - but 
revenge on this scale is not the answer. The only way to deal 
with terrorism is to strangle it financially, then launch an 
underground war, as in Northern Ireland. I wonder how people 
would have reacted if we had dropped daisy cutter bombs on the 
American-funded offices and training camps (IRA) that have 
existed in Northern Ireland for 30 years.

I have always been passionate about life but now I do lie awake 
at night thinking about the pain being inflicted on the Afgahn 
people in the hunt for one man. This is not justice - it's 
bloody criminal.


[If upon reading U.K.Voices thinks that he has at last succeeded 
in his attempt at brainwashing U.K.Citizen, he would be quite 
mistaken.]

The above reporter, in my opinion, recklessly ventured into 
extremely hostile territory and was duly captured by enemy 
forces, immediately putting her life and those with her at risk. 
Her nationality gave her sufficient bargining power to hasten 
her release, I doubt the eventual fate of the 2 Afghan guides 
she took with her was as pleasant. One can only imagine what 
that might have been. To add further embarrasment to her nation, 
her mother pleaded before the national media, to implore that 
the Taliban release her daughter (of course quite 
understandably). However, on news of Ms.Ridley's release, and 
for the proceeding couple of days, the reporters's mother, in so 
many words, thanked the Taliban and stated for all the world to 
hear, what 'nice' people she thought the Taliban were. The same 
group of people who left to their own devices, put womens' 
rights, right at the bottom of their list of priorities, if it 
was ever on there. Ms.Ridley having been present at this rally 
seemed to contradict herself on the numbers present at it. She 
said..

Police Est 15,000 persons, and she multiplied that by at least 
4. Hmmmm...That makes at least the minimum 60,000...not 80-
100,000. The truth sure is the first casualty of 
war...Ms.Ridley. 



Pro-Opinion: Dated Dec 2 2001 (Sunday Express, Tabloid U.K)

(Former Labour MP, Robert Kilroy-Silk)


Title: Taliban are not worthy of Mercy.

Why all the fuss about a few Taliban fighters killed in the Kala-
i-Janghi fortress? What's Amnesty International getting into a 
lather for? The fighters weren't in Afghanistan to visit the 
sights or grow poppies, were they? They're terrorists. Their 
friends murdered innocent men and women in America on September 
11 and they gloated over the deaths.

And, by all accounts, the terrorists began the fighting when 
they beat and bit to death the CIA officer, Mike Spann - after 
one of them exploded a grenade to kill himself and several of 
his guards - after which they used their weapons on their 
captors. What were the Alliance forces and the Americans 
expected to do?

We all know Taliban troops cannot be trusted. We've seen them 
change sides faster than a traffic goes from red to green. For 
the past couple of months, they have played out a saga of 
betrayal and deceit, showing themselves to be turncoats who will 
fight against friends at the wave of a dollar, or a fist. They 
would barter their mothers for a Toyota pick-up.

Why should those guarding them have their safety put at risk 
once the fanatics had started the killing? After all, they keep 
telling the whole world what fierce fighters they are, how they 
will fight to the death and become martyrs on the way to 
paradise.

Who would want to take risks with gun-waving head bangers like 
these? Mind you, it was, so far, the only time they have stood 
their ground and fought.

Remember how we were warned by the faint hearts that this would 
be a war that the U.S. could not win? How we were told that the 
well-fed comfortable Western soldiers would be no match for the 
ideoligically driven hard men? Do you recall how frequently the 
so-called lessons of history were cited and how we were made to 
believe the Americans would get bogged down in the snow, lost in 
the mountains and would return home in body bags?

Some prediction that was. Oh, the Taliban posed as great 
warriors but the moment they were confronted by Alliance forces, 
being properly directed by Americans supported by precision 
bombing, they either caved in, surrendered, changed sides or 
fled. Some heroes they are.

They are fine when it comes to beating, intimidating and 
terrorising women. They can do that, all right. They're also 
good at blowing up unsuspecting and unarmed men and women going 
about their daily business. But they are not up to fighting real 
soldiers. One lot, the Pakistanis, got themselves airlifted out 
of harm's way by the Pakistani airforce.

Doesn't say a lot for their principles, does it? They evaporate 
pretty quickly, don't they? They can be bought, bartered or just 
forgotten when they become inconvenient or too dangerous to live 
by.

This war is being won by the Americans - in the air and on the 
ground. They must be sure to dictate the peace. Afghanistan must 
be built on American principles, reflecting civilsed values. It 
must not be left to the squabbling crew meeting in Bonn.

-------

Om/cf, speaking as an U.S. citizen what is your opinion on the 
contents of the 2 posts, the prior one containing that news 
report, but also specifically the last paragraph above? 

Ashraf:

To hell with what you think you know about me you little 
megalomaniac prick.
How dare you think you can act as the "Will of God" by 
threating peoples
well being, because of your judgement of them.
You are a (ta use your words)"terrorist point of veiw" little 
man.
I have no use nor see any need to address you again--in 
fact I was done with you in that letter
I wrote to allati2d, you and somebody else---and it might not 
have ended on not such a sour note, had you minded your 
own fuckin' business when I was talking to Walter.
And again Walter--thanks for that reply. For he finally gave 
me a sraight answer.
I never got one that clear out of you Ashraf.




To all my Friends:---I am done on this board. I will continue 
to read some----maybe an occasional post. But my 
character is no longer needed here.Spy.

No longer needed?!...I wouldn't be so sure Spy...I really 
wouldn't!....I'm a fine one to talk after my antics a few days 
ago, but things on this board are not quite as they appear in my 
opinion. Feel free to make your presence felt anytime you like 
sir. I in turn, hope you'll reconsider, but don't leave because 
you feel your presence hear is not needed,...because it most 
certainly IS.  

Hi, to answer your question OM, yes it is me who post in another 
board as Truth. When I came into this site posted my comment as 
Truth and realize that the date was back dated so I copy and 
pasted on this boad and change it to Fact Finder. It will be 
Fact Finder from now.

And thanks Missin for your comment, I am just commenting on what 
I learn. Should be hanging around.

The latest development, Taliban surrender, Should Mullah Omar 
and the hardliners of the Taliban be allow freedom? Just one 
week ago he was calling to fight to the death. Now he want to 
surrender or was he force to surrender?. What happen now? 
Answer, his own lives at stake. Has he chicken out? It is fair 
to those who died for his cause? And what about thousand who 
have died during his reign. Also who is going to answer for the 
death of Masoud (leader of Northern Alliance) and Mr Haz kill at 
the begining of this war when he was captured.

I feel all this hardliners are to be captured, gathered and sent 
to solidarity camp and re-educate them on Islam. The Allies can 
also learn from them about their organization and how they work 
but I doubt they will reveal.

Will Afghan be at peace? Still a big question mark. Even before 
the interim Goverment start 22nd Dec. We have a prominent 
Warlord General Dostum boycotting the meeting because he feel 
his group was not given enough power. Don't forget this man is 
the main force to attack Kabul and Kunduz. So the administration 
should pay more attention to this guy. 
Lets just hope and pray that these people, the goverment, the 
opposition and the people in general will work together to bring 
Afghan back to life. Peace be with them.

As for Mr Arafat. I don't think he is doing a good job. As one 
of the Isreal minister say he can be the best actor in West End. 
Now as of today at least we are seeing some real arrest that why 
the riot. As what the Isreal minister say, he can arrest 100 or 
200 in front of CNN OR BBC, bring them in the front door and 
release them by the back door. I just pray that he will be able 
to convince his people that peace can only be possible by 
arresting those who do not want peace.

Peace be with you all who want peace.

 We are the world, we are the children, we are the one who make 
the world a better place, so lets start giving. (forgiving)

Spy... I always look forward to reading your posts...Please 
don't  stop it just wouldn't be the same here....

I'll be here---just gonna try to hang back though.

But ---what do you mean or would you explain more about,
"things on this board are not quite as they appear in my 
opinion." 

anyhow --I'll be 'round.

JethroTull had a song years ago called "watching you, 
watching me, watching you". I always got a kick out of that.
This board reminds me of that.

I'll leave a message for you via Allatti2d's E-mail. I'll ask 
her to relay it to if you wish to E-mail her. I guess she may 
not be back 'till the week-end, so I won't E-mail her until she 
gets back. Wait until we can talk.. then make your mind up. Take 
care.

Thanks for the kind words.  They mean a lot. I have taken your 
thoughts into serious consideration and they make sense.  I am 
grateful for this board and happy that I am allowed to vent and 
cry.  THANKS! 

Well what d'you know yanks letting off bombs on allies again, 
there's a surprise

I have to make this short, have to get to the store, our dog
and cat are low on food and I dont want any Animal Rights
protesters burning down my house, its cold in the midwest.
 War protests. Famous since Vietnam, once the "in thing" to
be part of, they dont seem to be as popular anymore. I was
a kid during Vietnam but recall the nightly news images,
body counts apparently reporter everywhere, reporting everything,
citizens freaking out in more ways than one, then protesting,
all soldiers were baby killers. Flash to today, in America we
dont see blow by blow coverage, and there are virtually no
protests but then again Ho Chi didnt attack us in our country!
 Protesters must remember who protects their right to protest
and pay respect for the rights they have to the ones that give
them right. War is terrible, but as a citizen of the UK or
America relish the fact you can protest. I see a lotta happy
women in Afghanistan right now who didnt dare organize a protest
about their rights before this joint military action! I saw a
interview last night on 60 Minutes, I think, with a late teenager
, might have been 18, who had secretly snatching up everthing
available to read and learn English while the Taliban ruled.
This kid was so damn happy Im thought he would soil his pants
on TV! All he wanted was to see movies in English so he could
pick up some more phrases.
 As far as the Americans winning the war it seems obvious to me
that American, British and whoever else are not winning this
war, the Afghan people themselves are winning the war with
a considerable amount of help as in, BOOM BOOM. While Im near the
subject, I just laugh at people who say such things as "Americans
and/or British are cowards for just bombing, not on the ground
fighting hand to hand." No we are not, that would be called
STUPIDITY. Lets just throw away ant technological advantage we
have to fight fair. To those people I say, look for the results,
among other things (but Im trying to swear off swearing).
 The Afghan people are selling on the streets, TV dishes made
from scraped cans and such, I see no need to "impose" American
values on the Afghans, a democratic goverment and they wi